Walking Alongside People in the Church

On the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries podcast, I hosted a panel discussion called “Real World Cases: Walking Alongside People in the Church”.

You can listen here.

Transcript

Bob Keyes: This is what the church is about— walking beside people. Uh, the world doesn’t walk beside people. They tell them to go, go, go do it. But especially a woman, they— having someone, maybe another woman, walk beside her as she goes through this, what an encouragement that is to her and to her faith and to her relationship with other people and the church.

Narrator: Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed Reformed deacons. There are nearly 1,000 deacons in the OPC alone, so let’s take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We’re so glad you could join us. Let’s jump into our next episode.

Tim Hopper: Hi, my name is Tim Hopper, and I serve as a deacon at Shiloh OPC in Raleigh, North Carolina, and am a member of the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries. For this episode of The Reformed Deacon, I’m going to facilitate a discussion group we call Real World Cases. I I’ll describe the case to our panel of deacons and we’ll discuss possible responses to each. These are fictitious situations, but I think you’ll find them realistic and feasible. I hope after listening you’ll come away with some suggestions for responding and following up when this or a situation like it should present itself at your church. With me today are three fellow deacons: Bob Keyes from Grace OPC in Columbus, Ohio, Doug Voss from Oakland Hills OPC in Farmington, Michigan, and John Voss— with two S’s this time— a deacon at Covenant OPC in Orland Park, Illinois, and a fellow member of the Committee on Diaconal Ministries. Welcome, brothers. Thanks for being here.

Doug Voss: Hi, Tim.

John Voss: Good to see you.

Doug Voss: Yeah, great, great to be here with you, Tim. Good to see you.

Bob Keyes: Thanks for inviting me, Tim, and, uh, look forward to our, our discussion.

Tim Hopper: We’re going to go ahead and jump right into the scenarios. We have 3 scenarios today. Scenario 1: Donnie approached one of the members after the Sunday service, and during their discussion, the member decided that Donnie should speak to one of the deacons as he seemed to need assistance. Donnie and his wife Dawn are not members but are regular attenders. Donnie was very complimentary about their experience with the church and the friendly people they’ve been fellowshipping with. He shared that they have been having difficulty finding work but don’t want charity. He would really like some help with cash, food, or gas, but wants to do some work for the church to earn it. Is there any work either of them could do? They suggested cleaning, painting, organizing closets, yard work, etc. He stressed that they are not afraid of hard work and would do pretty much anything. How would we think about this scenario?

John Voss: Well, this is John. Actually, at our church, we, uh, we did have a similar situation with an individual. He was a member of the church, uh, so the church did allow him to do some, some of this type of work, and then they did pay him for those services. But it was never someone who was not a member of the church.

Doug Voss: Yeah, I noticed that, that it does say that they were not— they’re regular attenders but not a member. So there’s certain types of volunteer activities that we would want the person to be a member for certain sorts of things, but the other thing would be matching their— what they want to do to something that actually needs to be done. You know, so if you have a recently built building that everything’s been painted, yeah, recently, maybe there’s nothing to paint. Or, um, if you already have another member who you’ve given some janitorial responsibilities to because they were looking for some extra income, then you don’t have any extra janitorial things to do, you know. So, um, depends on the church situation. I mean, I, I would definitely sit down with them and say, you know what, this is, this is why people give to the Diaconal Fund, is we want to help people, you know. So I want you to understand that, you know, we would give freely. We don’t expect anything in return, but I know you, you want to do something. So I’m reminded of a couple things that— I’ll go way back. This, this dates me a little bit to, uh, Diaconal Summit 2010. I believe it was

Bob Keyes: the, the— that

Doug Voss: was the first Diaconal Summit, the Deacon Summit 2010. We had, I believe, Steve Corbett and Brian Ficker talking about their book When Helping Hurts and talked about some questions to ask people, you know, what are you good at? Are you good at like repairing brakes on cars? Are you good at making fried chicken? You know, how— what do you get excited about?, you know, that you could use your gifts. What are some of your gifts that you could share with the church? Let’s talk about that. We want you to volunteer in a way that— maybe nobody needs their brakes changed right now, though, you know. So it’s, it’s like kind of matching the right situations. Another, um, book that I recall a situation— George Grant, who’s been a pastor in Nashville for quite a while, when he was early in his ministry in a place called Humble, Texas, he documents in one of his books, Bringing in the Sheaves: Transforming Poverty into Productivity. He talks about when you have a situation like this where somebody comes to the church and says, hey, I wanted— I want to do something, and you want— you want to honor their request to do some work, you have to have a relationship possibly with the community where you have like an empty lot that’s full of weeds or whatever, and you could if you have a relationship with the community, then you can say, hey, you know, I know the mayor said he would like to get this lot cleaned up. How about if you go over there and clean up that lot? We’ll, we’ll arrange it with the mayor. And that way you’re helping your community. The church is doing something good for the community. Would you be willing to do that? And so then again, you have to know what the needs are in your church and what the needs are in your community. But also, in summary, I think, you know, stressing to that regular attender who’s not really a member, well, you know, there’s certain things I couldn’t let you volunteer for yet. ‘But I want to work with you, and we, we would really appreciate you using your gifts and abilities. If you can do car repair or whatever you’re excited about, or if you’re really good at making fried chicken, hey, bring that to the next church dinner,’ whatever, so that they feel like they’re contributing something of their gifts.

John Voss: When, uh, we had the, uh, the individual that we had at our church, again, he was a member. I think a non-member, you would— you obviously have to treat a non-member differently than a member.

Doug Voss: Mhm, I agree.

John Voss: Because you don’t know him as— you don’t know him as well as, as a member. So there’s possibilities of abuse of the position or of the volunteering. You have to be careful with that. Um, what if he gets hurt? You have injuries and they’re not members, and you’d still want to help even a member who, who got injured. But the— there are risks associated with having volunteers doing work and being the church, being the person or the, uh, the entity that’s receiving that work. I’m just— being in business, one of the things you think about is workman’s comp and, and injuries to employees or, or other people, right? So that’s— that is a pitfall that you have to be careful of.

Doug Voss: Yeah, I agree with you, John. So, and looking at his request, I mean, our church would have a policy that would would work out pretty nicely for this request. He said he would really like some help with cash, food, or gas. He wants to do some work for the church to earn it. Well, we would have a policy that we would probably give them some grocery cards, you know, like a gift card, grocery card, and maybe a gas card, and help him get on his way, and then continue the discussion about other projects that he could do. Yeah, maybe we wouldn’t say, hey, we need you to get here to church early to shovel snow this weekend. Um, you know, because I don’t know if that’s a good idea, right? So again, you’d have to work with them and have more conversation. And oh yeah, typically, you know, I think some of these things are easier when you have— you know, hopefully a lot of people listening to the podcast, you have a situation where you have a plurality of elders and deacons, and the deacon board can talk this over. Because sometimes it’s hard to figure these things out if you’re just one deacon. And I appreciate we have a plurality of deacons here on the podcast today to kind of work through this.

Bob Keyes: So yeah, yeah, I think the, the key here is that I think you need to be generous. They’re coming to church, give them freely their— the gas and the food, the gift cards or whatever, however you want to do that. But you got to get to know them. And, and once you invite them over to, to dinner at your place, then I really encourage to really think about how you can help them find work. I mean, the ultimate goal is to finding them a job. And you’ve got connections in your church, I hope, that can help in this, this regard. They need a work, they need a job. And I, I’m really cautious about the— what you’ve said about the risk involved of having them do a job that they’re not capable of doing. Either hurting something or hurting themselves. So again, we, we normally don’t— we, we give generously and yet cautiously, both, both sides, and watch. And, and then again, as they learn what the diaconate is and how we operate, then allow them to do the things that they’re, they’re good at. So again, that’s my balance I have, is, is that don’t take a lot of risk Give generously and get them work. Find them work. Find them job. And work hard with your congregation to connect them and to find them work.

John Voss: Well, that’s a, a good idea for the deacons, even the elders, to be able to have access to the opportunities of finding employers. I’m thinking in our area there’s an, there’s an entity, uh, called Self Help Jobs, and they teach you how to fill out a resume. They try— there are opportunities where employers will call, almost like a placement company. Uh, there are companies that will call them and say, I’m looking for somebody who does this or that or these, these types of skills. So the per— people that are involved in this ministry, and it is a ministry, teach and help assist people who, uh, to fill out a resume or to make up their own resume, and then can sister them up with other people that are seeking those positions. So at the very least, they have an opportunity and they have an ability at that point to go out and look for a job and know how to present themselves, as well as there might be someone there that, you know, okay, he’s good at mowing lawns, well, someone’s looking for a lawn guy. Um, so that’s another opportunity, and that’s something that you can open up to whether they’re members at your church or visitors at your church— steady visitors, I should say, at your church— because you got to be careful with that too. You don’t want to recommend somebody, um, that you don’t know really that much about, because you never know what you’re— what or who you’re sending over.. But if you’ve got a good enough relationship with them where they know these people by name and have spent time with them, that’s one of the things that a diaconate and a church can do as well— assist them in finding, like you said, Bob, find a job.

Bob Keyes: I— again, that’s where inviting them over to your house to begin to get to know them. It s— sounds like they really didn’t know them very well. The deacons didn’t really know them very well until the member, which I got to emphasize, That member knew what he was doing. He understood the deacons. What, what a blessing to have members that know what to do. That means we’ve got to make sure they know us and they know what we do and they know what to do when they have this kind of situation. I think it’s great to have members like that. That’s what we want. Yeah, but again, the other thing is, is that we, we really want to, to encourage them and pray with them, help them to know this is what we do, this is how we do it. And it’s really from and to the Lord that we, we have our trust and our hope. And we remind them that God provides. And that’s his name. God provides. And so we can trust the Lord and again, talk into their lives the talk of, of the Lord Jesus Christ and his mercies and grace in providing for all of our needs according

John Voss: to his riches.

Tim Hopper: Yep.

John Voss: I guess one last note, when it’s, um, in the scenario they could use some cash, gas, food, um, that is one of the things that we, we do not give cash, right?

Tim Hopper: Right.

John Voss: First and foremost, we don’t give cash. We’ll give you gas cards, we’ll give you food certificates, we might help pay your landlord, but we don’t give the individual actual cash.

Bob Keyes: Exactly. Yep, exactly.

Doug Voss: We all agree.

Tim Hopper: Yeah, I’ll just add one thing here. I think there’s also an opportunity for deacons to, in a situation like this, help encourage this couple towards church membership. And I mean, it, it’s a concerning position for someone to be— I mean, depending on the circumstances, but potentially concerning situation for someone to be unwilling to be in church membership. And maybe something for the deacons to be talking with the discussion about why that’s happening in this case, or, but, you know, depending on the relationship, just to really encourage people that this— you need to be a member of the body, not necessarily as a condition of the help, but just that, that’s important for your soul.

John Voss: Oh, definitely. I think, and one of the other things I think we would do, I think it’s been mentioned somewhat here, bringing in an elder or two because those elders will take that step too. It’s, it’s good for them to get to know who the elders are.

Tim Hopper: Yep. All right, that’s great. Let’s move on to scenario 2. Stella has been a member for about 3 months. She approaches you after the morning service and asks to speak to you about a diaconal need. You locate another deacon and sit down to discuss it. She unfolds a series of financial events that have brought her to a crisis point. Then she says, I never wanted to approach the deacons. I was raised to stand on my own two feet. But I don’t see any other way forward, so I was wondering if the church would loan me money until I can pay it back. After a discussion, you discover that about 3 months ago her car was stolen and she didn’t get very much from her insurance claim. She’s been relying on family members for help with transportation, but it’s becoming difficult. She’s asking for $1,000 to put towards a car. She has a full-time job and is trying to get additional part-time or weekend job to help pay for it, but

Doug Voss: she hasn’t been able to find one yet. Yeah, I’ll, I’ll just jump on in. This is something— in the Detroit area, we have very little public transportation, so everybody needs a car to do anything. You need a car to get to church, you need a car to get to work. We even have people that, uh, they deliver food or they make deliveries with their car that the deacons have helped in our church. So the car is pretty important in a lot of communities. So the fact that her car was stolen I’m just looking— I’m looking at the facts of this case in this scenario number 2 here. So, um, she’s been a member for not very long, so I think, yeah, we would want to sit down with her and pray with her and say, you know, you did the right thing coming to the deacons, and that’s why we have a ministry of mercy here. And, um, in our church, that’s one of the most frequent things that we do is help people with their car. You know, cars break down, transmissions break down, engines blow up. All kinds of things happen. So you did the right thing coming to the deacons. Let’s pray about it. Let’s talk about it a little more. And so, but her car was stolen.

Tim Hopper: Whoa.

Doug Voss: Right. So, um, and she didn’t get much from her insurance. I would say our church though would have a policy. We wouldn’t give you a loan. We don’t care if you ever pay it back. You know, if you feel like you’re in a better situation 3 to 5 years from now, or a year from now, put some money in the collection plate, right? But we’re not going to give you a loan. And in fact, we want to go a step further and we want to help you find a good car, right? So in our church, sometimes what we’ve done is we’ve asked around in the church anonymously, you know, does anybody have a car that’s still running pretty well that they want to give away? Okay, and then we’ll, we’ll make a connection so that— such that once we’ve matched the two up, we will, we will make it in such a way that we make them promise never to go back to that person. Okay, if it’s another church member, you’ll never go back to them and say, hey, this thing broke on my car. In fact, sometimes we’ve said, okay, so maybe we’re getting the car at a really low cost you know, below market value and we check the car over, maybe we’ll have a mechanic inspect the car. In other words, what we want to do is go above and beyond. We don’t just want to write a check for $1,000, right? We want to make sure that we make this person whole. She got her car stolen, right? And she needs it for work. So we want to put in a situation where she doesn’t have to worry about her car for a while. Okay, so If we get, if we can get a car, a used car donated, that’s, we might even have a mechanic inspect it, get a bunch of things repaired on it, make sure that it’s a good car, and maybe even give it a 6-month warranty within a, you know, that the deacons will guarantee, right?

Tim Hopper: Mm-hmm.

Doug Voss: Anyways, so we want to go above and beyond. This is a church member who had a car stolen. We don’t want to just like write a check for $1,000. We would never do that anyway. We never give away money. We always like, okay, let us help you look for a car. If we don’t have anybody in the church that wants to donate a car, we’re not in that situation, then we want to look— help her look for a good used car, possibly. We don’t want her to— now, we— again, maybe she’s in a position, she got a full-time job and she’s looking to get a second job. You just want to make sure she doesn’t sign up for a big car payment and insurance payment on a brand new car that she can’t afford either. So We want to be careful and, and do this all out of love, right? So different communities would be different. You know, if you’re in New York City, you take the bus every day. It’s not a big deal. If you’re in Detroit or something, I mean, yeah, a car is vital. You, you got to have a car. Different situations in different cities and communities across the United States. But I’d like to hear what the other brothers have to say.

Bob Keyes: I think you made a lot of good points, uh, Doug, I, I think that I would add that some deacons may not be as good at locating cars. You want to be looking for the right person. Now, again, this takes wisdom. Yeah, a deacon would be wonderful, but some guys or gals can really do it in terms of looking online and finding the right vehicle. And if— but again, you’re right. I think the first place you look is does someone have a vehicle they don’t need. That’s how— that’s how God provides oftentimes. But if he doesn’t, and sometimes it just doesn’t work out, then make sure you find the right person or persons to go help her find the vehicle. I think this is such an encouraging thing that she doesn’t have to walk this one alone. Um, this is what the church is about— walking beside people. Uh, the world doesn’t walk beside people. They tell them to go, go, go do it. But especially a woman, they— having someone, maybe another woman, walk beside her as she goes through this, what an encouragement that is to her and to her faith and to her relationship with other people and the church, especially only being 3 months into, uh, membership of the church. She will learn a lot about the diaconate as she sees the deacons work for her and not just give her $1,000. I think that’s the worst thing you can do is give her $1,000 and, and tell it’s— tell her it’s a loan. That’s, that’s the worst thing. The best thing is to walk with her and make sure she gets what she needs and doesn’t have a lot out on it because you don’t want her in debt. You want to encourage her and maybe even going over a budget with her, helping her get going and get out from under all this stuff that she has that she

John Voss: needs encouragement with. Mhm, mhm. Now, one of the things— I’ll call it a little bit of a point of clarification— churches aren’t allowed to make loans. I’m not an accountant, but I deal with accountants, and churches, churches that make loans endanger their charitable status. They can lose that 501(c)(3) rating.

Doug Voss: That’s probably why we have a policy in our church Deacon handbook that says don’t make a loan. So I mean, why we did that,

John Voss: but that’s probably one of the other reasons. That’s— yeah, that’s, uh, yeah, no, no, no loans from churches. So that was— and the scenario was like, no, no, no, no, no, do that, you’re not allowed to do that. I’ll glom on to what you said, Bob, too. This is an excellent opportunity to educate a new member— and in particular perhaps a new Christian— on the makeup of the Church and the different offices in the Church and the different purposes of those offices in the Church. A great way of introducing them to the, to the diaconate and to the point of mercy ministry as well. Pretty much everybody’s raised with the, you know, I’m supposed to pull up my bootstraps, I’m, I gotta stand on my own two feet, blah blah blah blah blah. And to the biggest point, um, yes, there’s Like, there’s a truth to that, but there are pe— there are times that there’s going to be needs. Everybody is going to run into something, and there’s going to be a need. Don’t be afraid, don’t be ashamed of going to the diaconate. I wouldn’t— I don’t know how you go about encouraging her. Let’s say the church does help her out and give assistance and helps to pay for this car. I, I would somehow, you, I, I, I would want to encourage, and yet I don’t think it’s appropriate to say, oh, by the way, how’s things going? Do you want to get, you want to donate back to the benevolence fund? But I would hope that in all this, the individual becomes aware there’s a reason there’s a benevolence fund, and that’s because people give to it. People give to it so that they can help other people. You’ve been helped. It’s time for you to help other people as well. And I don’t know how you go about pushing that or, or educating that to an individual, but I think it’s down the road as, as she’s been blessed. Now you become a blessing to others as well. If it means contributing to the benevolence fund of the church or whatever you’re calling it, That’s something that needs to be developed in that individual. That’s the whole point of Christianity and being a Christian. I shouldn’t say Christianity, but being a Christian is that we are to give sacrificially. We are to sacrifice and for the benefit of others. Christ sacrificed himself for your benefit. Now it’s time for you to sacrifice for someone else’s benefit as well. And so being able to educate that person about how benevolence works in the church, this is a great opportunity for it.

Bob Keyes: I think the other thing that you’re going to get from this, uh, I’m not sure, but I would imagine this girl, if she gets what we’re talking about and how— and, and walking with her, she is going to tell everybody in the church how how wonderful the, the mercy ministry of the Church is, and what a blessing to have other people hear of her testimony to God’s provision. I, I— this is what excites me about the diaconate. This is what excites me, to hear how people are affected by the mercy ministry of the Church, and this blows up. I mean, this is what really pulls the deacons together, makes them excited, and then makes the church excited about serving along with them in their own ways. And this woman’s testimony to God’s provision

Doug Voss: will, will certainly do that, I believe. Yeah, it could be right. It could develop into quite a story when she tells her friends that my car was stolen and I was really wondering what to do next, and I was surprised how the church came around me and helped me, you know, get a better vehicle again and get my— get on my feet again.

Bob Keyes: So, but I think the other thing, John, don’t forget, it’s not the church, it’s also the world. The world— that the world might know that we love and that we care and that we do what’s needed to care for those in the church. I— can I

John Voss: join? Can I join? That’s— yeah, but it is— that’s, that is the point of diaconal ministry, is showing the love of Christ through the cold cup of water, whether, whether that’s food, gas, help towards finding a car. That’s the whole point of— we show

Tim Hopper: the love of Christ because of Christ’s love for us. Amen. Excellent, brothers. I think that’s really helpful. One other thing that didn’t get mentioned, but it may be potentially wise in this situation to still encourage her to consider this part-time job. Um, you know, hopefully not one that’s gonna prohibit her from being at, at church on Sunday, but, you know, if things are this tight, um, I, I think if you’re able, working extra hard to get in a better position is, is gonna be really wise. And people often don’t wanna do that. Um, but, you know, people need to do that sometimes.

Doug Voss: Yeah. That’s a good point, Tim. So you might say, have, have you, you know, have you heard, um, this guy on the radio that talks about having an emergency fund? You know, have you have one of those? Um, it might be a good idea going forward to develop an emergency fund. If you want to know more about that, you know, we can have you read a couple books, or we can sit down and tell you more about that. And basically talk about their budget, but in a real friendly way, because now is the time of crisis if you had your car stolen. So you don’t necessarily want to teach them everything, but it could be a teachable moment where they go, yeah, I want to know more about that. How would I develop an emergency fund? And the other thing we tell people is, if you got a car, it’s going to break down. Anybody that’s got a car, guess what? You know, if you got a car, it’s gonna break sometime, right? So just plan on it. And, um, that’s why you need an emergency fund, because you got a car, and everybody that’s got a car, they break down.

Bob Keyes: So Well, Doug, I, I kind of disagree with that. That should be in their maintenance budget for the car. It shouldn’t be an emergency.

Doug Voss: They, you know, it’s gonna happen. Yeah, okay, you got a car, you need a maintenance budget, you need to change the oil, emergency gas in it, you got to pay for insurance. You sure do. Um, but I know I was very naive as a young married man and college student. I thought, man, I thought I did so good because I got a car, right? And I got married. And I was like, then I had my first kid and then I started running out of money. And my dad’s like, you know, you got a car, it’s going to break down, Doug. Here I was like 21 years old, had a baby and a car, and then I had a whole series of cars that kept breaking down, right? So that’s why I tell people, if you got a car, guess what?

Bob Keyes: It’s going to break down. And again, another, another opportunity we have here is find men in the church that can fix cars. And help her fix her vehicle. What a blessing. What a second blessing this would be when she does a year from now have that breakdown. She says to the deacons, what do I do? And I says, let John go and fix their car for you and help you with that. What a blessing that is as well. What a, what a secondary blessing. I have a couple more things I think are important with this, and, and we oftentimes overlook it. But you, you saw that she asked one deacon, and what did he immediately do? He immediately went and got another deacon. Yes. This is wise. This is wisdom. He just didn’t go talk to her. He, he brought another deacon. It was a woman, and he brought another deacon. Yeah, there would be no question of integrity here. This was good, wise. Uh, these are all wise little things, but little things are big things in the Church of Jesus Christ. And, and Stella knew her deacons. That’s another point that we oftentimes overlook. She knew her deacons. We need to be known for our leadership in mercy ministry in the church and making announcements, making sure that people know us for, for who, what we do and how we do it at Stella New after 3 months. May God bless us as we get to, to interact with our, with our congregants and make sure they know what we do, how we do it, and we’re doing it all for God’s glory.

Tim Hopper: All right, let’s move on to the third scenario. Sterling has asked if he might attend the deacon meeting to make a request. He has been granted permission, but when he unfolds his story, you’re surprised to discover that it is not for himself that he’s asking for help. The McNeil family has a very high heating bill this month, he says. They were behind last month too. I would like to pay off both, both months. But I do not want them to know that the money came from me. Could I donate and then have the

Bob Keyes: deacons pay their bill for me? This is my favorite, absolute favorite. I love this, uh, this scenario. I’ll give anything for this scenario. This Sterling— his name is Sterling Silver. I love this guy. I can’t wait to meet him and encourage him to work towards becoming a deacon. I look for this in my church, and I pray for this in my church, that we would have men that have a heart for others. They’re not looking to make themselves known. Matthew 5 or 6 talks about being quiet about it and just giving so that others would feel the mercy and the grace of Christ. And that’s Sterling. He’s sterling silver. He is wonderful. And this is our deacons that are, are in our church that we’ve got to see and recognize and bring on. Give me 5 of these men and, and I will make— God will make his, his church a mercy ministry church. This is rare and this is real. And this is the one that makes my heart stir and beat. And I can’t— may the Lord give us these Sterlings in our church, and may we see it, and may we run towards them and encourage them all

Doug Voss: we can become deacons. Okay, so you answered the first part of the question there, Bob. So this is Doug. I’m going to jump in again, and this is why I love having— when we make decisions, a lot of our decisions as deacons, we’re making two at a time, three, four deacons talking together, because some of these are difficult to sort out. So, so the— but the second part of the question is, could I donate specifically to them. That’s where a lot of times we would say, you know what, we really

Tim Hopper: don’t do designated giving to an individual. In the US also, it’s probably not tax deductible in that situation. I’m also not an accountant like John Voss, but, um, that’s one of the reasons you, you don’t take a designated gift like that.

Bob Keyes: But you don’t have to— once you hear the, the, uh, the, uh, concern You can say, put your money in the plate and we will— we— thanks for letting us know about this need and we will, we will deal. I mean, don’t say no, say yes. The answer needs to be yes. The question comes is, is put your money in the plate and we’ll deal with, uh, with the, the heart of the issue here with, with this family, McNeil family. But again, what— absolutely, it’s important that we— that he sees us take care of this family. That’s the most important thing I think of all, is that yes, we are on this. We thank you for letting us know. Put your money in the plate and, and don’t designate it, but we’ll, we’ll work on it and we’ll make sure

Doug Voss: they, they, they’re, they’re cared for. I, I think that’s, that’s the more careful and nuanced answer, Bob, is that we really don’t have designated giving to specific individuals, but We want, you know, thank you for telling us about this situation. And, um, then I think sensitively we need to approach the McNeil family and say, hey, we heard about this situation and we want to help you, you know. So I think that would be, you

Tim Hopper: know, one of the first steps. And sometimes it turns out the story the deacons got is not the correct story. Yeah, which is one important reason to do that. Yeah, it’s like playing, uh, you know, the old telephone games and the story

Doug Voss: gets twisted along the way. Okay, yeah, so yeah, you definitely would, would want to sit down and talk with the McNeils tactfully, discreetly, begin a discussion about, hey, what’s going on? Understand, you know, this is what we heard, but what’s— what do you think is going on? What, what is this?

John Voss: What’s the real situation here? I think you take a com— kind of a combination here. It is a nuanced situation. You’re right. It is, it is. Again, it’s not, um, proper to say, I want to give this to John Doe, name them specifically. Yet there is a nuance to it, the way you ask, the way you approach it, the way you say it. So I can again say, well, the McNeils have an issue, and then like Bob says, thank you for letting me know about this, and then we’ll, we’ll look into it. Let’s just assume that the McNeils, you know, there’s nothing untoward here, then there’s not a problem for the diaconate to say the McNeils, they were brought to our attention, and so we can ask the McNeils, or we can go to the McNeils and we can offer them this assistance because they’ve been brought to our attention. Just because Mr. Sterling came in and mentioned them by name doesn’t preclude that money from being given to the McNeils. That’s still up to the diakona. So as long as, as long as he gives it to the diakona, it’s really not having strings attached to it. Okay, I’m going to give it to you deacons. By the way, um, the McNeils have an issue blah, blah, blah, blah, um, there’s not an issue, there’s not a problem, right? Yeah, can it— to give it to them, you just— it, you know, it’s, it’s kind of silly. It’s— I, I’ve, I’ve dealt with this on a couple other issues as far as if I make a donation to missionary XYZ, is it eligible to be written off? Well, as long as I’m giving it to the ministry that’s sponsoring him and I tell that ministry ‘Cause it’s— I’m directing the giving. Let’s be careful, it’s called directed giving. But I’m directing the giving by saying I’m giving it to missionary XYZ, but I’m giving it to— well, we’ll just say OPC foreign. That’s a lot. That is actually allowed because I can say— the way you pray, the way you say it is I’m giving it to the ministry of missionary XYZ. Mhm.

Tim Hopper: Mhm.

John Voss: This is one of the most gray areas from what I’ve heard and been

Doug Voss: told by the accountants.

John Voss: It’s one of the most gray areas you can run across as far as giving and donations.

Doug Voss: So maybe we should give the disclaimer. If you’re listening to this podcast,

Bob Keyes: talk to your CPA. Talk to your CPA. But I, but I, I, I have the real problem. My real problem comes is when there is a clear conflict of interest. When you’re giving this to your kid, you’re asking to help your, your child or help your grandfather or, or an aunt or an uncle or a cousin. This is where I really have a problem. And I really try to direct them that this is not appropriate, that you can tell us of the need, you can give freely to the diaconate, but we’ve got to make our own wise giving for the right reasons and not someone that directs us to their own family or relatives. This is, this is where I really have a problem. And I’ve had this happen in our church and it’s awkward for deacons. It’s, it is awkward to work off of that.

John Voss: It’s not wise or right. Yeah, no, you nailed that one. Yeah, directed giving toward— especially in that case, that is There’s a lot of people— yeah, sure, I can do the same thing. I can say I want to give to— I got grandkids in school, so I want, I want to give to the school fund, but I want it going towards the tuition for my two grandkids.

Bob Keyes: That can’t be done. No, that’s correct. And we got to guard against that because the, the world might see the corruption even in that giving. It’s what the world’s looking for to put our finger at us, and it can’t be there. We’ve got to be wise and we’ve got to be just. So again, guarding against that is so

Tim Hopper: important for deacons in the church. Yeah, I’ll offer a slightly different perspective. Not against— not against being wise and just, but on handling this. We have in our diaconate been willing to give these kind of anonymous gifts where we’re not receiving the funds into our diaconal fund. But if somebody just hands us some cash, and is asking us, hey, will you deliver this anonymously? And if it comes to me, I always say like, this is— it’s not a tax-deductible gift. Just make sure the person’s aware if they’re okay with that. And you know, to some degree, I don’t really even see that as a kind of official diaconal transaction. I’m just being the intermediary. And when I give it to a person, um, you know, maybe it comes with a reason, but if it doesn’t come with a reason, if the person seems confused and maybe even uncomfortable why they’re getting this. I say, look, if you don’t want it, you can give it the diakonal fund. We’ll be happy to take it. It just, there have been ways I think it’s an opportunity for someone to encourage someone else anonymously. And I don’t have any objection to that. The tax deductibility of things doesn’t need to drive our motivation for doing it. Right.

John Voss: That’s right.

Tim Hopper: Oh, sure.

Bob Keyes: Exactly.

Doug Voss: That’s just a current legal nuance. Again, you know, I was telling my story about being 21 years old and cars kept breaking down and I’m newly married. And in fact, I think I became a deacon when I was around 24 or 25. I’ve been a deacon for 40 years now, it seems like. There was a lady in the church, a grandma, that saw us struggling. And every once in a while— I was a deacon, I think, by this time, right? So this grandma would walk up to my wife after church sometimes and shake her hand. Right? And in her hand was like a $20 bill, you know, and she’d say, “Go buy some milk for your kids.” So a lot of these things that happened in my life, you know, I’ve been so blessed that I’ve seen how the church operates through the Ministry of Mercy. And I think it’s made me a better deacon, but also good stories to tell people, “Hey, Grandma, you know, if you see somebody struggling, it’s okay if you give them a golden handshake.” once in a while. You know, if you see a mom that can’t feed her babies, you know, slip her a $20 bill on your own. You can do that. You know, you can do that. And the grandma might be really excited about it, you know, to go around

Bob Keyes: giving some golden handshakes once in a while. That’s a beautiful story. I, I— there’s so many different ways of doing this so graciously. And just what an encouragement to some of these young people, or some of these elderly people. What a great encouragement. We can be as deacons and as met— congregants to, uh, to our flock and to the people of our church.

Doug Voss: What a blessing. I think at one of our Deacon Summits, I believe it was David Apple— I’m promoting Deacon Summits all the time— um, one of our Deacon Summits, I believe he gave a talk called Everyone is a Deacon, right? And deacons are really just examples of how every member of the church should be giving. So this grandma had it right. Would— she would, you know, give my wife that golden handshake at the end of church, like, hey, get your kids some milk or some new diapers or whatever, you know. Yeah, because everyone’s a deacon, really. We’re all just supposed to love each other and serve each other and help each other.

Bob Keyes: So, and I think that’s where the deacon really shines, is when they can encourage this kind of ministry among our congregants. This is— there’s no better deacon than to encourage this kind of generous, cheerful giving to others in any way possible where it’s from love and mercy and grace. What a, what a blessing to watch that and be a part of that as a deacon. That’s again one of my greatest things is to watch and see this in the church. This is what makes my job so, so, so wonderful and so, uh, so gratifying.

John Voss: Very rewarding. Very rewarding. I’m reminded of— I, I’ll have to— it’s a terrible paraphrase, but basically there should never be any serious need within a church because it’s a church, and

Tim Hopper: the

John Voss: church responds to need. Well, that means every— like you said, Doug, everybody’s a deacon. Ultimately, everybody’s supposed to be a deacon.

Tim Hopper: He’s just not formally ordained, that’s all. Yeah, it’s the— maybe referencing the Canadian Reformed Church liturgy for ordination of deacons, talks about not— no one being left uncared for under poverty, sickness, or loneliness, something to that effect. And that’s a really helpful three pillars for,

Bob Keyes: for me to remember. One of the worst things in our churches is loneliness. I heard it. What a wonderful statement about— one of the worst things in the U.S. culture is loneliness, and it’s so needed to walk and love and give grace to those that are lonely and, and suffering. And, and hermits— we, we have hermits in our church— can’t get away from their home. They need deacons and the church people to encourage them and bless them.

Tim Hopper: Wow. So true. Big, good topic for a podcast sometime, Bob.

Bob Keyes: I think so. I— bring me on. I’d love to talk about loneliness. It’s one of the biggest problems that we all face in our churches, and we don’t even see it. We don’t notice it. We don’t even watch for it. But it’s there. And it is so important that we, we show mercy and grace to those

Doug Voss: people that— well, I only took a few notes from Deacon Summit 1, but I have my notebook from Deacon Summit 1 in 2010, and I’ve been to 4 of them now. Now. So I’m promoting Deacon Summits. But, um, my note in Section 1 says poverty alleviation is about reconciling relationships. Goes along with what Bob just said. It’s about really connecting people and showing the mercy of Christ

Bob Keyes: in the church. So, um, and may God give us

Doug Voss: hearts to do that.

John Voss: Yes.

Tim Hopper: Amen to that. All right, gentlemen, anything else before we wrap up here?

Doug Voss: A lot of fun.

Bob Keyes: Yeah, that’s it. To my dear friends here, just talking

Doug Voss: to them, what a blessing. Yeah, this is great. I have a great bunch of deacons here, and, uh, thank you, Tim, for moderating this too.

Bob Keyes: Yeah, Tim, blessing.

Tim Hopper: You all are. All right, well, we thank you, brothers, for being here with us today. We hope that our fellow deacons will find this discussion helpful and encouraging as they labor for their congregations in Christ’s name.

Bob Keyes: Thanks again.

Doug Voss: Thanks again. Take care.

Narrator: Hey, God bless you all, guys. Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformdeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of

Tim Hopper: the Reformed Deacon podcast. Deacons, don’t miss the February issue of the OPC magazine New Horizons, featuring articles on benevolence and the most recent Presbytery Diaconal Summit. If you don’t receive the magazine to your home, be sure to pick one up at church or find it after February 1st on OPC.org.