Real World Cases: Walk-ins

On the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries podcast, I hosted a panel discussion called “Real World Cases: Walk-ins”.

You can listen here.

Transcript

Chris Sudlow: It’s an opportunity to ask them about their faith and talk about our faith and why we’re here and to pray with them and share the gospel with them.

Narrator: Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed deacons. There are nearly a thousand deacons in the OPC alone, so let’s take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We’re so glad you could join us. Let’s jump into our next episode of The Reformed Deacon.

David Nocklin: My name is David Nocklin. Today on The Reformed Deacon podcast, we’re going to do something a little bit different. Today I’m going to sit down with a few deacons to discuss case studies or situations that you as a deacon might find yourself having to address at your local church. I’ll describe the situation to our panel of deacons, and we’ll listen as they discuss their responses to each case. These are fictitious situations, but I think you’ll find them very realistic and feasible. I hope after listening you’ll come away with some suggestions for responding and following up when this or a situation like it should come up at your church. We have 3 deacons today on the podcast, uh, Doug Voss coming to us from Oakland Hills Community OPC in Farmington Hills, Michigan. John Voss from Covenant OPC in Orland Park, Illinois, and Chris Sudlow from Bethel OPC in Wheaton, Illinois. Gentlemen, thanks for being here.

John Voss: Nice to see you.

Chris Sudlow: Pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Doug Voss: Thanks. Thanks for pulling this meeting together. It’s great.

David Nocklin: Yeah. So let’s get started on our first case. We’re going to call the man in this scenario Stan. So Stan appears at the door of the church at the end of the morning service. You’ve never seen him before, but he asks if he could speak to the pastor or the deacons. You ask how you can help him, and he says, “I need some money right away. I have a prescription from the doctor and it needs to be filled.” Stan becomes more agitated as you try to gather information. Stan does have what appears to be a valid prescription, though it looks a little worn. Stan said that he thought of coming to the church because he rides the bus past it almost every day. So, Chris, when we start with you, what concerns come to your mind with this case?

Chris Sudlow: Uh, not surprising. I guess my first reaction would be to, uh, get another deacon involved with me. We always meet in twos for our walk-ins and try to start a conversation and see what level of anxiety or other intensities going on. You always want to, you know, try and de-escalate things, find a quiet place we can sit and talk with him. That— but that’d be the first thing I’d do. I’d get one of my brothers, have two of us spend some time with him.

David Nocklin: Good, good, good. I love the idea of de-escalate the situation. John, any— do you have any concerns as you as you hear this case?

John Voss: Well, I— we would do the same thing. I would, I would bring in, bring in at least one other deacon. And again, going into a private, more of a private place where you can deal with an individual more comfortably so that they can be more comfortable. And then there’s a lot of different questions, of course, that we would be asking. He says that he came by— he rides his bus by the church, past the church. Um, I would want to know, and we would want to know, does he have a church home, family status, to get to know him a little bit better. What would bother me is that in this scenario, Stan becomes a little bit more agitated as you’re seeking information. That’s an issue, and it’s— I think that’s a red flag as well when someone becomes evasive. Why?— they’re becoming evasive. So, but having several, several deacons would be— is very helpful.

David Nocklin: Thank you. So, so Doug, uh, you’ve sequestered the young man with some fellow deacons and you interact. What, what’s, what’s your guys’ first steps maybe?

Doug Voss: So same scenario, we’d probably find a private room, one of the empty Sunday school rooms or something like that, and sit down and talk. I think, uh, what John mentioned, asking about just some general questions about family or, you know, where are they from, how long they’ve been in the area, kind of just see what they— see what their answers are to those things. Because typically if someone is really in poverty or homeless or whatever the situation is, we don’t, we don’t know. All you know is the guy says he needs some money for a prescription. But by asking them a little bit about their background, family, and current living situation, you can, you can get a lot of information right away. And particularly family, if, if the guy’s getting agitated and you’re asking him, you know, what’s the family situation, a lot of times people are estranged from everyone in their

Chris Sudlow: family.

David Nocklin: Hmm.

Doug Voss: I mean, we’ve seen that probably 90% of the time, somebody that’s asking for money and they’re coming into the church not knowing anyone in the church. I don’t know, maybe 90% is not, not an accurate percentage, but a lot of them, their family won’t help them anymore because of this collision that they’ve had with their family. Uh, maybe I’m reading too much into this case study, which is, uh, which is a made-up one, but I’m, I’m thinking back on different conversations we’ve had with people. Real scenarios, similar but real scenarios where by talking to them about their family and they’re, they’re starting to get a little agitated. The reason they’re not getting along with their family is like a whole lot of different things going on in their life. And so their family won’t give them any more money either because why? You know, if you get to that point, somebody is going to get really agitated with you. But I like what Chris said too. Try de-escalate the situation. Don’t probe too deeply, you know. If it’s the first time you’ve ever met the person, you want to try and genuinely help them. And so our church— like, I, I know a number of other OPC churches have like a policy that the deacons have already agreed on, right?

David Nocklin: So can you give an example of the— of such a policy maybe that you guys have at your church?

Doug Voss: Like a certain amount of money that you can give with no questions asked. Yeah.

Chris Sudlow: Okay.

Doug Voss: But maybe you’re not going to give cash. So like if somebody needs gas, maybe we’ll, we’ll run down to the gas station with them and put gas in their car or we’ll give them a gas card. In this case, using a similar thing, we don’t have a policy specifically about a prescription. You might say, well, it’s at the end of the morning service. You might say, well, let’s go down to the pharmacy together and see what’s going on.

David Nocklin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Good, good.

John Voss: We would do the same. I would do the same.

Doug Voss: Yeah. So just like you’d say, let’s— okay, you know, I know your car’s on E, let’s go down to the gas station and, and fill you up if it’s the first time, right? Because you’re trying to get to know them and you don’t want to say, oh, this guy’s just a total ripoff. You want to give them the benefit of the doubt. You want to say, hey, let’s, let’s try and help them. Let’s try and get to know them. Let’s try and build a relationship. So, you know, putting $25 worth of gas in somebody’s car is not a big deal these days. I mean, you know, it takes like $80 to fill up some cars lately.

Chris Sudlow: Right.

David Nocklin: So.

Doug Voss: Right. But in this case, he wants money for a prescription. So I would use a similar principle of saying, hey, let’s, let’s go down to the pharmacy

David Nocklin: together.

Doug Voss: Yeah. I don’t know what I would do there if it’s a legit prescription, but you’re going to find out whether it’s a legit prescription or not pretty quickly.

John Voss: So.

David Nocklin: Yeah.

John Voss: And at that point, if it is legit, then I— if the prescription is a legitimate prescription, then that means the doctor’s seen the guy and he actually does have whatever that physical ailment is. Yes. But again, like you said, we would go down with him because we’d never give cash. It was either certificates or like you said, a gas card, or we would take money out of our, you know, out of your own pocket and you would spend money.

Chris Sudlow: Right.

John Voss: But you wouldn’t actually give that individual the money itself. Uh, we even— one time we had someone that needed, supposedly needed clothes, had a job starting on Monday, needed some uniforms, nurse uniforms. We cut the tags off the clothes.

David Nocklin: Hmm.

John Voss: And she was very upset about that.

David Nocklin: Hmm. It’s a smart move.

John Voss: So that’s— stop it.

Doug Voss: But she was planning on returning them

John Voss: or something, and, uh, that’s one of the suspicions. It’s not necessarily what she was planning, but we cut those tags off so that she couldn’t make the return because

David Nocklin: a lot of people will do that.

Doug Voss: Yep. Yeah, John, some of us older deacons are kind of jaded and, uh, skeptical because we’ve seen scam artists come through and They’re telling you lies to get money for some other reason. But even then, you know, you wanna help ’em out. You wanna buy ’em a meal. You wanna get to know ’em, you know? And because even if they’re telling you lies, I mean, look at, look at Jesus talking to the woman at the well, right? She’s— he’s basically continuing to ask questions and saying, of course, Jesus is

David Nocklin: omniscient.

Doug Voss: He immediately sees, you know, so we don’t know. We’ve got to pray for wisdom, ask the Holy Spirit to give us words to say. But basically, it doesn’t matter that they’re telling you lies, right? We’re all sinners, and people aren’t— they’re afraid to tell you the truth up front. But you just keep talking to them and try and build a relationship, and they may say, you know what, I like talking to you, um, you know, or I, I like your approach. Because you basically want to try and help them even if they are telling you lies, in a way. I mean, at least in some small way to try and build that relationship and see whether they’re going to come back to church and talk to you some more.

David Nocklin: What do you think of that, Chris?

Chris Sudlow: Yeah, I think that’s where the rubber meets the road. Um, we have a policy set up for our deacons, and, um, we, uh, we do a couple of things, but in terms of you get a request for money, I like to rather quickly let them know that we’re not able to give

David Nocklin: cash.

Chris Sudlow: It’s not— we, we don’t work as individuals. We’re set up as board and we have policies, but that we do want to help you. So we authorize, um, walk-ins for two deacons to, uh, provide up to $50 in food card and $50 in gasoline without having to take it back to the rest of the deacons for a formal vote. And that’s our policy, and I think that works pretty well. But yeah, you know, at the same time, I’m telling him— explaining to him that it’s not just a simple thing that we can hand out cash and why. I also say, but we can help you and we want to help you. And you know, we have, you know, we can do some food or, or gas or, or, you know, those kinds of things, or like Doug and John said, go down to the pharmacy with them. I would be a little careful with that because, you know, you could get into a big prescription, etc. But I think the sooner you give them a parameter of what you are you’re authorized to do and what you have permission to do, it sets the stage for, you know, a beginning understanding. And at that point, sometimes they’ll just turn tail and walk out as fast as they came in. And even if you say, well, I can do some things for you, and they say no, and, you know, that’s it, they— yeah, you see, that’s kind of a dividing line. And I think it’s been helpful to set that early in the process.

David Nocklin: How do you guys battle the tendency to become jaded when you’re lied to and, you know, there’s an effort to defraud? I mean, you guys have given wonderful, wonderful answers of a desire to help. How do you battle the tendency as, as the years go on to become jaded?

John Voss: I don’t know if it’s becoming jaded. Maybe it’s more you become more aware of the possibility or the probability to avoid becoming jaded. I, I don’t want to make it sound like it’s overly simple, but the reality is, what is the deacon supposed to be doing? He’s offering that cool cup of water. He’s offering— he’s, he’s trying to demonstrate the love of Christ and what Christ has done for the sinner. So While someone maybe will say there’s— they’re scamming us, the reality is Christ loved us while we were— before. Yes, we quit scamming him, right? So once you deal— you become aware of that, I think it makes it maybe a little bit easier to— it’s not that you’re not becoming jaded, but a little bit easier to be somewhat forgiving, at least on the front end of the relationship. If it’s the first time I’ve seen somebody or we’ve seen somebody, you always try to— our opinion, and my opinion has always been to err on the side of mercy. And it’s not necessarily erring, it’s, it’s acting on the side of mercy, being aware that maybe they’re going to try to scam you. And so you know that there has to be a limitation. Chris says they, you know, set a $50 limit. And that is incredibly helpful.

Doug Voss: Mm-hmm.

John Voss: And if you put that right out there, right up front and say, well, yeah, we could help. We can, we, we’re able to assist. We’re not gonna give you the cash, but we’re gonna go with you. But we do have a limit.

David Nocklin: Yeah.

John Voss: Now, if you wanna sit down and meet with the, uh, elders and, and some more people, because we do have that possibility, but it’s gonna take a whole lot more of us. And we’re going to get more deeply involved with you in your life. And then that’s usually when, if they— if it’s a scam, they can’t hit their gas pedal hard enough. Yeah, right. Get out of there, because they don’t want to be involved with that.

David Nocklin: Yeah, right.

John Voss: There are times that people are more than willing to. They really do seek— they seek help and assistance, involvement.

David Nocklin: So would you say, Ted, that you should avoid taking it personally when they’re always, you know, They’re not stealing it from me.

John Voss: They’re still— you’re trying— they’re trying to steal it from the Lord. And I’m, I’m a steward of that. As a deacon, you’re a steward of the funds of God’s people, the funds that God gave his people, and they gave it to you. So we’re stewards. You’re not trying to steal from me. They’re trying to steal from the Lord. Yeah. Um, so don’t take it personal.

Doug Voss: Yeah, I was going to say, coming back to Jesus talking to the woman at the well, we found always asking questions about the relationship with their family cuts to the chase pretty quickly. Like Jesus in, uh, John chapter 4, verse 16, he says to the woman at the well, go call your husband and then come back. And that’s when it’s revealed. She says, I have no husband. And Jesus says, you’re right to say you have no husband. The fact is you’ve had 5 husbands. But you don’t know what people are going to say when you say, well, you know, well, are you from this area? Do you have any family? You know, could your family help you with prescription? Or why can’t your family help you with this prescription? What’s going on? Which is a legitimate question, right? Um, because you want to, you want to try and help them, but you also want to understand, like, you know, why can’t they get money for their prescription?

Chris Sudlow: Just to be transparent, I have felt at times jaded by walk-ins, um, jaded by not only going to the pharmacist but getting them a room in a hotel while they’re driving back to the upper New York State and various situations like that. So I think, to be honest about it, that, that is an issue because you don’t see very many walk-ins return, and you see fewer than that ever, you know, come and be part of the body in any kind of attending or meaningful way. But having said that, I don’t know if just because I’m getting older now, but I enjoy it when I’m assigned to the walk-ins for a Sunday and we get a walk-in, because my perspective’s really kind of turned around on that, because it’s an opportunity to ask them about their faith and talk about our faith and why we’re here, and to pray with them and share the gospel with them, and to, and to spend time in prayer. And for me, that’s kind of turned the whole situation around from feeling like somebody’s just coming to get something for free and it’s going to just, you know, leave and never return, and why are we spending this money and why are we spending the Lord’s money on, on these kinds of situations to— you know, this is a genuine opportunity to pray with people and share the gospel with them. And to be honest, I don’t have a lot of other opportunities in my life. I’ve had several, But I don’t have a lot of opportunities in my life to really sit down and share the gospel with someone and pray with them. So that’s been very freeing for me. Mm-hmm. And I think the flip side of that is that we’re providing a gift. Um, we’re, we’re, as, uh, Alex Patko said, we are the hands of Christ and we are doing the work that we’ve been commanded to do. What they do with the gift downstream is not our responsibility or something that we need to hold in our hearts and take us sideways. It’s— we’re, we’re free of that.

David Nocklin: Hmm. That’s good. That’s good. Thank you. Wouldn’t you agree that a wonderful way to overcome being jaded is when you actually do have a situation where you ask the hard questions and they— it turns out that this is a pretty legit— this is a legitimate need and it’s real, and you’re convinced that it’s real, and you minister to it in a real way. And, um, that’s to me the best antidote to the, to the

Chris Sudlow: jīdōn.

Doug Voss: So people that are willing to come and sit and eat with you and learn and watch videos and talk about finances and talk about their financial struggles and they’re trying to get on their feet financially, trying to hold down a job But they, and they come to church every Sunday. Those are the people you want to help. You just love on ’em, you know, you just want to keep helping ’em. And so those are the kind of stories you can tell to the guy who’s a walk-in, like, man, we’re willing to do all kinds of things for you. We’re gonna help you, you know, get a better apartment. We’re gonna help you get a better car, whatever you need. But we don’t just give away money to somebody that walks in off the street. You know, they don’t give like a car repair. We don’t, you know, put $1,200 into someone’s car repair because we don’t even know. Like, you walked in, you don’t even show me your car’s not running or, you know, you’re just making up a story. It seems like, you know, so that’s where you got to convince them that if we get to know you and you’re not afraid to get to know us a little better, we can help you a lot more. Do you want help like that?

David Nocklin: Can you talk a little bit about any kind of, uh, recording that you do of your, of your visit? Uh, do you guys have any kind of written record of, of the visit? And, and what, what type of information would you collect?

John Voss: You would come in, we would ask for ID.

Chris Sudlow: Okay.

John Voss: And we would make a photocopy of that ID. Where you from? Where you came from? Who you’re staying with? Where are you staying? Again, like Doug said, I’m trying to get background on the family. The obligation of the family in helping the individual is premier. We always felt it was first you go to family, secondly you go to the church, right? You go to the government last, and the, the food kitchen or something else last. But first is family, second is church. If you haven’t got a church, then, well, what about— why don’t you have, uh, why, why don’t you have a church? And why don’t you have family involved? And you’re every— you know, I’ve heard it from both of you that if they’re not getting help from family, there’s something much, much deeper going on almost every time.

David Nocklin: Yeah, thank you.

Chris Sudlow: We keep a very low technology 3-ring binder of our visitors, and we copy their ID and fill out their info, and we also share with them that for people that, uh, walk in, uh, unannounced. The gifts that we’ve been authorized to give are, uh, are these gifts once per year, so that they know that, you know, for a one-off request, we’ve put a limitation on that, that they can come in once per year. And it’s been very helpful, I guess, in terms of just setting the expectation stage as well. You know, it is pretty easy to whip through that binder over the last year and, and see, and, you know, sometimes we’ll have repeats that will come in, but it’s nice to have that easy backup and just a little bit of accountability on our side, uh, to keep things manageable.

David Nocklin: If we could talk for a few minutes here, guys, about next steps. You’ve brought them to the pharmacy, you’re going to help them with a prescription. Do you want to talk to them about the Lord longer term? What are the logical next steps?

John Voss: Well, initially, again, we— you’re asking when, when you first meet them and you talk, do you have a church? Are you associated with a church? Do you have a relationship with the Lord? And then if the meeting goes— continues on, we’ve always invited the walk-in to worship with us. In a lot of cases, as at least in my experience, has been that usually that person shows up not at the end of the service— oh, before the service. And so if you want help, we’ll see you after, after morning worship, or after— that’s right— worship. So they sit in a service, and then through the discussion, maybe you’re— again, that first, that first initial offer, um, to take care of the whatever that immediate crisis is But there’s always an offer extended to come to the church, um, give your phone number, um, somehow try to set up some sort of a potential relationship at the very least so that they can— you can give them an invitation. And there’s been times, okay, they need a ride home, so you take them home, and on the way home you discuss with them, do you have, you know, what’s your relationship with the Lord? A lot of people will tell you that they were raised in a church and what it meant to them. Um, a lot like what Chris has said too. Um, we’ve only had a couple of people come a few times. Um, but then again, maybe part of it is that they’re transient, and so they’re moving on through. You’re just, you know, you’re, you’re just one of the stops that they’re going to have for the, for the next month or so, but always an invitation. You know, and always give a testimony, brief, but a testimony.

David Nocklin: Let’s, uh, move to our final case study. A woman named Jane comes to the church. You’re the only person at the church getting set up for a meeting that people will arrive for in an hour. She tells you her boyfriend is abusing her and is after her right now, and she needs help to keep her safe. Her boyfriend’s probably only a couple minutes behind her, and she needs a place to hide out. What do you do?

Doug Voss: That’s, that’s a tough one. So, um, probably you guys have heard of the Billy Graham rule. So typically, uh, I would get another deacon to help me, but the scenario you’re painting here, you’re alone at the church and this lady named Jane comes— first of all, my wife’s name is Jane, so I would, I would get her on the phone. I’d say, Jane, talk to this other lady named Jane. And, um, talk to her for a while, and then I’m going to call one of the other deacons and, and ask for help. I’m going to make a phone call and say, hey, what do I do? My wife Jane is talking to this other lady named Jane. She says she’s being abused, and I might get my wife involved. Okay, that’s how I might handle it, because I don’t want to be in a situation I have— yeah, where I’m alone with her in the church for an hour, um, especially if that other guy shows up.

Chris Sudlow: And

Doug Voss: so, um, not that anything should go wrong, but that’s what I want to protect myself from. So I want to get one of the other deacons or the pastor to help me as quickly as possible. That’s my initial reaction to the scenario.

David Nocklin: That’s good, Doug. Thanks.

John Voss: Yeah, I would get another woman involved like you

David Nocklin: said.

John Voss: Um, that’d be number one. Probably two, I think I would maybe call the police. Hmm. Unless I got a concealed carry permit or something. But I’m somewhat facetious, but I’m— I don’t want to be dealing with, uh, an irate boyfriend, husband, or whatever. I think it’s excellent to have another woman involved. Yeah. So that you’re protected from any possible Um, misconstruals as well as accusations. Yeah, if there was the threat of— a threat of physical harm, I think I’d call the police.

Chris Sudlow: I think I would, I would too. I think I’d put her in the building and stand outside the building. I’d call the police in front of her, put her in the building, and tell her I’m going outside the building. I’m, you know, and call the police in front of her and see if Her story changes a little bit at that point. That’s a pretty— domestic abuse is one of the most dangerous calls police go on. So that’s, that’s well out of— it’s,

Doug Voss: it’s hard to know from these scenarios, but I guess, yeah, real life scenarios too.

Chris Sudlow: You never know.

Doug Voss: It’s like, it’s like this amazing situation that you’ve made some cases you’ve never experienced something quite like that before. So you just have to think back to other scenarios or other situations and say, okay, What are my policies? And, you know, policy being a deacon would never normally— our deacon policy would be, you know, to follow the Billy Graham rule. You would never meet with a woman, one deacon. Two, two deacons would always be meeting. And that’s almost with anybody. We, you know, like some of the other brothers have said.

Chris Sudlow: And for brothers, I would, I would never want to be alone with a, uh, an individual woman. I mean, that’s just straight up no-go. I go, you, you need help, you jump inside. I’m going— I’m calling the police in front of you to let you know they’re coming. Go inside and I’m going to stand outside.

Doug Voss: Because what you don’t, you don’t know from this, you know, scenario, this case study that we’re reading here, you know, is the guy— does he know that— does this boyfriend that abuses her, does, does he know where she’s hiding, you know?

David Nocklin: Right. Right. So let’s, let’s take it a step further. So the police do come, they get involved, the, the boyfriend doesn’t show up, her story checks out, uh, she needs help. What’s your next

Doug Voss: step? Um, you should have a list of resources ahead of time of places where women can go. So most big cities and I think most Yeah, most, most places have, uh, a phone number or someplace you can call for abused women to go to. In the Detroit area, we have Grace Centers of Hope, which is, uh, another church-run ministry that we partner with occasionally. So yeah, it’s, it’s good to talk through these scenarios and then talk to your brother deacons and find out, do you have a phone number or you know, a

John Voss: resource.

Doug Voss: Um, some of the cases are actually more complicated and more difficult than some local churches can handle. Like, we don’t have beds, so you, you either have to, you know, send the person home with another church member or get them into a facility that’s got like a safe house for women that have been abused, right? And there’s places that specialize in that, so you can get them there, they can stay there for a little while and keep in touch with them, right? Then get some of the ladies— and we have a lot of widow ladies in our church that are prayer warriors— and, and, uh, ask them to help cover everything with prayer support. And then see what God does next. Because, uh, if it’s for real that she’s getting beat up by some guy, then— and the police can’t find them— it’s like, okay, what do you do now?

John Voss: Well, one of the things too, again, family. And does she have friends? And if family’s not an option and she doesn’t really have any friends nearby, um, then the church becomes her friend. You know, women there— if there’s women Bible studies if there’s kids

Chris Sudlow: involved, um,

John Voss: you know, the deacon’s wife is not a deacon or deaconess, but she can be a really tremendous helpmate as well and a tremendous resource as well, particularly in dealing with woman to woman, one-on-one.

David Nocklin: I personally believe that’s why there’s qualifications for the deacon’s wife. Because it’s implied— in my mind, it’s implied that she will be involved in the work, um, as she ministered, as, as half of the congregation is women. And so there’s a significant ministry to women, and deacons’ wives are wonderful resource in that way. Doug, how many years have you been a deacon?

Doug Voss: Probably over 30 years.

David Nocklin: Yeah. John, how many years you’ve been a deacon? 24. Chris?

Chris Sudlow: About 25, give or take. I just honestly can’t really remember.

David Nocklin: That’s a lot of years of experience in this room.

John Voss: Hmm. Sometimes it’s good experience and sometimes it’s trying and testing.

Chris Sudlow: Yeah.

Doug Voss: Walk-ins are

David Nocklin: tough. Well, thank you, John, Chris, Doug. It’s been fun to interact and see you interact with one another. I’m sure that deacons listening to this will be challenged and encouraged encouraged and, uh, resonate with the ideas discussed and hopefully be encouraged in that. And to our listeners, thanks for listening today as we discussed these cases. We hope you came away with some ideas of how you can serve within your local church. We hope to be able to bring you news— case studies from time to time, so stay tuned for more and let us know you like them by subscribing, sharing, and giving us feedback from your podcast player. If you have a case you’d like one of our panels to discuss, let us know by emailing diaconalministries@opc.org or by going to opccdm.org and hovering over the podcast in the menu and go to podcast feedback and topic suggestions.

Narrator: Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformeddeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful res— resources, and please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.