Biblical Financial Wisdom

On the OPC Committee on Diaconal Ministries podcast, I interviewed Dr. Jim Newheiser, professor at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, NC, about his book “Money, Debt and Finances: Critical Questions and Answers.”

You can listen here.

Transcript

Jim Newheiser: So I guess one thing that struck me the most was how often you come across something where the Bible gives principles of wisdom that we have to apply within a realm of freedom, and even in counseling, not to tell people exactly what they must do in a particular situation.

Narrator: Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual conversation with topics specifically designed to help local Reformed deacons. There are nearly 1,000 deacons in the OPC alone, so let’s take this opportunity to learn from and encourage one another. We’re so glad you could join us. Let’s jump into our next episode.

Tim Hopper: I’m Tim Hopper, a deacon at Shiloh Presbyterian Church in Raleigh, North Carolina. On today’s podcast, I’m joined by a special guest, Dr. Jim Neuheiser, who is the director of the Christian Counseling Program and a professor of Pastoral Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary. In Charlotte, North Carolina. Dr. Newhiser is the author of several books, including the one we’re going to discuss today, Money, Debt, and Finances: Critical Questions and Answers. This is a book that’s very useful for deacons, and we asked him to come on the podcast to discuss it with us. Welcome, Dr. Newhiser.

Jim Newheiser: Thanks, glad to be with you.

Tim Hopper: Can you share a little bit of the, the background of this book? You have a— your own unique background that maybe something people wouldn’t expect, and, uh, that has helped lead to the writing of this book?

Jim Newheiser: Yes, Tim, I majored in accounting and finance and management in university and spent, uh, the first several years of my career working with computers and finance and accounting originally for what’s called Accenture and then what was— what is ExxonMobil and Also, I had experiences in my 20s where we worked overseas and were able to save money, and also watching what people did when they were making more money than they ever had in their lives. As we saved money, we were very young, or made a lot of money, at least for us at the time, we had to learn to manage it, and it became just an area of interest of mine. Now, I would add, the whole time I was also very involved in ministry. We were actually in Saudi Arabia where I was pastoring a group while I was doing my work with the computers and the finance stuff. But I had a desire from many, many years before to try to bring together the background in finance, accounting, investing, along with a biblical perspective that would be rooted in sound theology. Uh, I heard about Dave Ramsey many years ago, and I think many people like his very practical and also folksy advice that he gives, but even the way I pitched it to the publisher, I would like to provide kind of Dave Ramsey but with exegesis and theology. And also there’s some things in Dave Ramsey that I think are a bit legalistic, and so I think we need to point out here’s what the Bible says we must do, like we must work, we must give But then I think that we also have a lot of freedom in some matters where he can be a little more strict.

Tim Hopper: Yeah, that’s helpful. What are— or what audience did you have in mind as you were writing it? It’s, it’s not an academic publication. It’s very practical. Is that— I assume that was the goal going into it?

Jim Newheiser: Sure. Yeah. And even though I teach at a seminary, I don’t feel like I’m the academic guy. I think I’m an ordinary pastor. And I’m now teaching future ordinary pastors and counselors. So I think that the audience would be the same mainstream audience for other practical Christian books. Money is an issue that, you know, affects everybody. And I would say, you know, I would hope people who could read Dave Ramsey’s book could read my book, and mine might be a little bit Uh, well, a lot more references to scripture and explanation. Not— maybe not as folksy, but I think certainly people who can read on that level, uh, the book can be used in a couple of different ways. I’ve had some people who would just read straight through the book, but its arrangement in a question and answer format also makes it possible for people to use it as a reference. So, you know, my friend’s trying to get me involved in a multi-level marketing scheme. Hey, what do you know, there’s a chapter on considering multi-level marketing, or, uh, my, you know, my extended family’s going on a trip to Las Vegas and they expect me to gamble with them, and how does the Bible speak to an issue like that? Or I just won a bunch of— I just— I hope you didn’t win it in the lottery because I wouldn’t like that, but, you know, I just inherited some money, and how— what are biblical principles of wisdom practically of how to invest it? So you can kind of jump around I could see counselors using it as a reference as they encounter people with various issues, or even getting their counselees to read certain parts of it. So I hope people are finding it useful in various ways.

Tim Hopper: Yeah, one— this is just occurring to me, but one of the times that our deacons try to encourage people to be financially thoughtful and, and wise is when, especially when young couples are getting married, You know, try to take the opportunity to talk to them as we’re able, but I think this would be a great book to get in, in the hands of those young couples as they’re getting married and combining finances and, you know, often starting off their adult financial life. I think it’d be really helpful as the years go on. The, you know, a lot of questions that will become relevant, you know, you have things, even the, the wisdom of, you know, buying car, fi— financing cars, leasing cars, and a lot of very practical things. As we, uh, get into that, what does the Bible have to say about money? Is, is, is the Bible— this is a 300-page book, a lot of chapters— does the Bible have that much to say about money?

Jim Newheiser: I feel like I was in summary mode rather than exhaustive mode. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says the scripture equips us for every good work. And part of that— I mean, so much of our life involves our vocation our responsibility to provide, our stewardship of the resources God has given us. And so from Genesis, where we were given a dominion to be productive, and then the troubles with our productivity because of the fall, you have many principles for commerce in the law, have still wisdom for us, although we’re not under the Old Testament law. The book of Proverbs has all kinds of addresses virtually everything in terms of, uh, how to be successful in earning money, the, the problems of the sluggard, uh, the wisdom of saving, the, the folly of debt. The New Testament also— Jesus has many parables and teachings about financial issues, and then Paul also brings up, you know, exhortations to the rich. James addresses rich and poor. So I think 300 pages is barely enough to summarize what the Bible says about financial issues.

Tim Hopper: Yeah, that’s really helpful. As you were writing it, did you change your mind or, or really develop your own opinion on things, on any particular thing?

Jim Newheiser: I think that probably the most encouraging aspect to me is that I really believe in the sufficiency of Scripture to guide us in life. And every single question or topic that I can think of, there is wisdom in the Scripture to address that. And sometimes even you come across something and you think, well, you know, I’m not sure. And then you start doing some research and you can see there are principles there. I think another aspect is that there are situations in which the Bible gives us freedom. And so some people want specific answers. You know, an example would be in 1 Timothy 6, as Paul speaks to the rich, he says, let the rich in this present world, you know, not trust in the uncertainty of riches, but to be rich in good works. And so he’s not shaming them for being rich. He’s not saying they can’t continue to save some of their money. He didn’t say have to give it all away. He says even that God has given all things to enjoy. And so wealth brings greater enjoyment of the things that God has made in the world. He also says we should be generous, but he doesn’t define specifically exactly the lifestyle we should live, exactly how much we should give away, how much we should save. We have a lot of responsibility there. And so it also, I guess, brings concerns of legalism, comparing it to other approaches where, like, Dave Ramsey would say you can never have a credit card, or here’s the way to get rid of your debt. And I would say those are a way to approach things, but there’s nothing in the Bible that tells you you can’t have a credit card. If you use it responsibly, there can be benefits. It’s true that many people misuse them. So I guess one thing that struck me the most was how often you come across something where the Bible gives principles of wisdom that we have to apply within a realm of freedom. And even in counseling, not to tell people exactly what they must do in a particular situation.

Tim Hopper: Yeah, that is a very relevant point for, for deacons as we, you know, meet, meet with folks in our church and advise them and counsel them and try not to bind their consciences on, on things that scripture doesn’t require. As we think about that, I’ve been a deacon now for 12 years, I think, and one of the things I’ve realized over the years is how much deacons are counselors. And, you know, something— even with that lesson I’ve learned from David Powlison and others is that how much Christians are counselors. As we just interact with one another, we have the opportunity to, to counsel one another. But particularly as deacons, you know, we, we sometimes write checks to help solve problems, uh, but I think a lot of times the bigger work we do is just in meeting with people who are in situations of financial need or sickness, and we’re able to give them comfort in Christ. So that connects to your interest in, in Christian counseling, um, and wondering if you might be able to then connect that back to thinking about how this book could be useful for deacons in their work and how they might use it in, in a church situation.

Jim Newheiser: Yeah, I can think of several ways. I’ve had couples come to me in financial trouble. And maybe not all pastors and elders are the best people to be helping into those situation— in those situations, but in my background, it’s something I’ve been comfortable working with. And so here they are, and they’re in debt, and they’re every month losing money. And so, for example, you— the book, after the general principles of money, it tells What does the Bible say about earning money? And the summary would be work hard, like go to the end. Proverbs 10, the hand of the diligent, you know, will be blessed. But also to work smart. Uh, Proverbs says, do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings. He will not serve ordinary men. And so, you know, if you’re working at minimum wage, you can work 70 hours a week and not provide for a family. You can acquire a skill where you can make $50 an hour instead of $15 an hour and provide for a family. And so in some cases, it’s sitting down with people and analyzing their situation is how can you acquire better skills so that you can make more money? Or how do you need to be more diligent, perhaps even to do side jobs or something to, you know, to provide for your family? And so that would be one aspect is if— if you’re falling short financially, then do you need to increase income? There’s also a lot in the book about creating a budget wisely. I’ve often sat down with couples and just making a list of where do you think the money’s going, and let’s go back over debit card and credit card receipts or, you know, statements and figure out where it’s going. And seek to— you know, Proverbs 21:5 is one of my favorite financial verses: the plans of the diligent lead to advantage, and those who are hasty come to poverty. So I’ve many times sat down with an individual or a couple, and we make a spreadsheet, just what are your expenses. And this is an example of the legalism. I can’t tell you what kind of phone to buy, what kind of phone plan to have, how many Starbucks you can have. I can tell you the debt is very bad, and then you need to have more money coming in, or at least equal to what’s going out, and you need to be prepared for the future. And then let’s look at your budget together, what you’re spending, and decide, well, maybe I can’t have Starbucks 6 days a week, or whatever. So, but I think there are steps of creating a budget. There are principles of, you know, where we should be spending our money and giving So those would be some examples. And I guess moving to the latter part of the book, if somebody gets an inheritance, and there are many bad investment advisers out there who are self-interested and will— I’ve had some really tragic, uh, things happen to people I know. And so how do we wisely navigate the responsibility of an inheritance? For example, I had— a case of a man who inherited a sizable amount of money, and he got— he met a guy at church who convinced him to buy a certain type of annuity and, you know, lend money to actually the business of the man in church. And the money in the business was lost, and the money in the annuity was locked up and terrible. And so, you know, warning people about how to choose investment advisors and then how to wisely steward our finances that we may have savings for the future.

Tim Hopper: Yeah, that’s helpful. In the OPC, we have a lot of really small churches and many with small diaconates, and, you know, I think I’ve been blessed to be at a church with several deacons. We’re always able to, you know, talk through issues and bounce ideas off one another, but I think even for churches with, with small deacons, this is a helpful resource And, and the book can become your sounding board as, you know, maybe you’re a solo deacon and you need to think, think through these things. And it’s, it’s really helpful to just be able to have somebody else’s input. And I think especially the way the book is structured in a Q&A format makes that particularly accessible. Uh, something you just alluded to that comes up actually fairly regularly is the, the idea of earning more money. I’m a graduate of Grove City College, you know, reputable Christian college, and our career services department was always telling us of how employers just love Grove City students and, you know, how they get snatched up and hired right away. And I had a friend in college who was a little bit cynical, who used to share the perspective that employers just like Grove City students because they were Christians and taught to be content and not complain, and then they, they wouldn’t ask for raises and, and cost the company a lot of money, which there’s maybe some truth to. But one of the pieces of advice that we often need to give to people is you need to earn more money. You know, be— when people are being careful and still not being able to make ends meet, they need to, to think about that. Is that wrong for Christians to have that perspective of aspiring to making more money?

Jim Newheiser: The warnings in scripture regarding finances is about the love of money and putting your trust in money in 1 Timothy 6. Not in having resources. There are actually many verses in the book of Proverbs describing the blessings that God gives with a certain amount of wealth. And, you know, it’s a protection against trouble and, uh, being prepared for the future. So 1 Timothy 5 says that if you don’t provide well for your family, you’re like an infidel or worse than an infidel. And so to— for most of us to earn well, the motive being we can give more to the Lord, that we can provide well for our families. There are many couples where the wife would love to have children and it’s being delayed because they’re not making enough money, or she’d like to be home with her children. And for the husband to figure out, how can I earn more money or budget more carefully so that my wife can be at home? Or, you know, instead of driving a 25-year-old Corolla with 5 people in our family, I could buy a decent minivan So I think the desire to take care of your family, to give to the Lord’s work, yeah, so it’s the motivation as opposed to my meaning is established by how much money I have and how nice a car I drive. And, you know, I, I dedicated my book to productive people, that the reason I have a building to meet in and a salary I’m being paid as a seminary professor and for 30 years before that as a pastor, is because people have worked hard and worked smart, and they’ve been productive, and they’ve given generously. People who had skills that other people valued and produced goods and services that other people were glad to pay well for, which— that enabled them not only to be comfortable in this world but also to be able to be a blessing and invest in the kingdom. And so again, I think it’s, it’s the motivation and the trust, and it, it’s a good thing, uh, to be successful. I’ll give you one other is that our church has some men who are entrepreneurs. Not only are they creating valuable goods and services for others, as they’ve been successful, they’ve been able to employ other believers train young men to gain skills by which they can provide for a family. And so all of this, as you read Proverbs, is how the Lord has set it up. And you see people engaging in commerce, engaging in, you know, gaining skills, providing valuable goods and services. That’s a blessing for those who receive those, as well as a blessing for that person and those he can bless.

Tim Hopper: That’s a very, very helpful answer. Thank you. For that. Um, also, I’ve also been privileged to serve as our church treasurer for, for a long time, and, uh, we, you know, we have two pastors who we’re able to provide for, and I get to really make that connection between seeing people who are able to give and then being able to provide for our pastors who serve us so faithfully. And if we had, you know, everyone adopting a monastic vow of poverty or something, you know, that, that wouldn’t be the case. Uh, and, and the Lord’s able to use those. And, um, and so, yeah, you mentioned RTS and just so many ministries that are supported that we’re so blessed with

Jim Newheiser: in, in our day.

Tim Hopper: Yes, missions. Yeah. Are there any common misconceptions that you think American Christians have about money and finances? We live here in one of the most, if not the most affluent societies ever, where even our, our poor often have more than a lot of the world. Are there common misconceptions that, that we’ve fallen into?

Jim Newheiser: Yes, I think that there are some that maybe come from bad theology where you have people saying, you know, the name it and claim it prosperity gospel people who, quite frankly, there’s so many ways that people undermine God’s way of gaining wealth, which is working hard and working smart. And they’ll try to say, well, if you give a bunch of money to this ministry, then God’s going to make you rich. Or even that just— if you just— whatever, if you follow certain rules spiritually, that God is going to make you rich. And yet we have many faithful brothers and sisters all over the world who aren’t rich and are struggling financially. So I think even understanding in a fallen world, people who may be working hard and doing the best they can may struggle. And then living in our particular culture, I think there can be a problem of being discontent where you can— first of all, comparison isn’t good anyway. You know, 1 Timothy, if we have food and clothing, with these we should be content. And Paul, Philippians 4, talks about being— he’s learned to be content in all circumstances. But I think if you’re driving the whatever 10-year-old Corolla and somebody else has got the new Tesla, we can be tempted to envy and be tempted to think that those who have the nicer house, the nicer car, are better off than we are. And then because our culture does so much with debt Christians can be influenced by culture and make unwise financial decisions, which, you know, the borrower becomes the lender’s slave. So, you know, just, just even that money will make you happy. And even secular studies show that wealth does not correspond to people’s happiness. And yeah, so just— I think the world tries to, you know, Romans 12 says don’t be conformed to this world. I think the world is constantly pressuring us to adopt their values, that money and stuff are what matter most. And, you know, that we need to— you know, the great treasure we have, Proverbs says, is, is the Lord and the wisdom he gives us.

Tim Hopper: Yeah, amen. That’s very helpful. You’ve mentioned debt a few times. Do you, do you think it’s outright wrong for Christians to have debt?

Jim Newheiser: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think that Debt is generally— well, the, the wisdom of Proverbs is that debt is to be avoided. I don’t think there’s a law in the Bible saying you can never borrow money, but Proverbs describes the bad things that can happen when you do borrow money, is you become a slave to the debt. And so we can see all kinds of bad things that happen practically. People charge up their credit cards. I actually have a case this afternoon of a couple who have, you know, gotten deeply in debt with their finances and are all messed up. And so debt is very dangerous because you have the allure, I can have something now and not have to come up with the money to pay for it. And so it can be misused in many ways. It is very vivid when it talks about incurring the debt of others, houses. Why should you have your bed taken out from underneath you? In Proverbs, that’s a very vivid picture of what can happen to you. They take your car, they take your house. And I’ve counseled people who have gone through bankruptcy, have had their houses foreclosed. And it’s because— generally because of unwise use of debt, of, you know, gratifying— instant gratification without planning for the future, being prepared. But it’s not forbidden to have any debt. And you could say, well, if you charge a dollar on your credit card, technically you’re in debt until you pay the bill. But if you incur this very short-term debt and immediately pay it off, again, that’s another thing. Debt is destructive because of the interest So you pay twice for things and the rates are exorbitant on credit cards. But, you know, somebody could go into debt for whatever and he pays it off because he’s planned to pay it off. Not many people can buy a house without debt. I saw an interesting statistic about how, like, when I was born, late ’50s, uh, the average house cost about double the average salary, and now the average house costs many, many more times the average salary. And so Uh, you know, if you’re paying, you know, sometimes you can pay a mortgage, and if you’re paying rent, I guess you’re paying somebody else’s debt. So I think we’re free to very carefully use debt, but we realize debt can be like playing with fire, so we need to be extraordinarily careful. And really, the, the situation I think the Bible would emphasize is don’t incur debt that may put you in a position of shame of not being able to repay, or disaster. That would even apply to a house, is that, you know, you buy a house, it’s good to, you know, it’s— buying a house could be a good thing for your family for many reasons. It could even be economically as good or better than renting. But if you buy the house that is— things are so tight that you can’t make the payment after a couple of years, that was a bad decision. And you want to, you want to be in a position where even if something went wrong, you’ve got some margin in your finances so that there’s very little possibility, human speaking— humanly speaking, you’d be in a position where you could not pay back what you owe.

Tim Hopper: That’s very helpful. That’s, you know, my fear as a, a deacon in 21st century America is not that I’m going to find out that someone in my church is destitute, not being able to eat, but going to find out that somebody makes $50,000 a year and they’re $75,000 in credit card debt. You know, 15% interest rate, uh, which is, um, particularly scary to me because it’s such a, a hidden thing, right? That those things can just be going on and you have no idea. Yeah, somebody’s not, not talking about it.

Jim Newheiser: I mean, I’ve even several years ago, I would meet college students who hadn’t even really worked in the real world yet, and they had $100,000 of debt with school and/or credit cards. And so I think, you know, I, I can’t from the Bible say you can’t have debt, but I would say that any debt you incur should be done so in a very careful, responsible way. I’ll give you another illustration, like with college debt, is to borrow— you know, college costs $50,000, $60,000 a year, and you wind up borrowing over $100,000 to get a degree in some field. I didn’t want to mention for less— lest I offend people, but there’s certain degrees when you’re done you’re not making as much as a novice electrician or something, that to incur debt on something that will not be worth what you incurred the debt for is unwise, and it’s going to be harmful. Now, if you’re accepted to medical school, maybe just like buying a house— you can’t buy a house without debt, and maybe you can’t go to medical school without debt— but there’s also a reasonable prospect that what you have invested in that education will result in you having an income that will make it easy to pay back the debt.

Tim Hopper: Yeah, very helpful. As we, um, work towards a conclusion, I’d like to ask a few questions about specific diaconal things and, and how we be proactive in church. And, you know, the— this forms right out of this question about that. Are there ways besides buying everybody a copy of your book that we can help people in our church avoid financial trouble and putting themselves in, in bad situations?

Jim Newheiser: Yeah, I mean, a lot of churches do Dave Ramsey Financial Peace seminars. I’ve got plenty of work to do without coming to everybody’s church and doing this, but I think the idea of offering classes or training on what the Bible says about you know, earning money, saving money, planning for the future, avoiding debt, I think would be valuable to— not just on a pragmatic level, but to show people explicitly from Scripture where that wisdom is. I also think that if we talk about it to people, then sometimes that will drive them out of the woodwork to seek advice. As probably for you, you know, Tim, as a deacon, or myself when been a pastor, that oftentimes by the time you learn about somebody’s debt problem or their financial problem, the boat is already sinking. Um, I’ve had people come and again, you know, borrowing money, you know, bought— took all the equity out of their house and, you know, like just in desperate situation. They— well, if you had come 6 months ago, it would have been much easier to try to salvage the situation. It is in the Bible. So I think in the preaching ministry, the word— some of these things can be brought up, you know, Sunday school classes, other matters. And then I guess in individual relationships and visitation, you’re not going to catch everything. But when you, you know, when people— a lot of people will talk about we’re struggling financially. A lot of times a wife will tell other wives. And I think to be proactive and offer— and some— I say, look, if you don’t want to show me your stuff, you don’t have to, but If you want to show me what’s going on, I think I can probably help you, and to make those offers, or even to make general offers publicly through announcements or whatever means of communication that the— you know, we have deacons who, whom God has gifted in managing such matters, and if you, you know, want some counsel or wisdom, here it is. I actually have— actually, I’ll mention two other resources that you might be able to use, realizing that not everybody in the church will read a 300-page book. I have a mini book by New Growth, it’s called Financial Crisis, which is just, you know, 20 pages, and it’s talking about if you find yourself in desperate trouble, here are steps to take to address the emergency. Um, and it begins by confessing to God where you’ve sinned. If— I mean, sometimes we’re just victims. COVID happened and your business got clobbered. But, you know, examining oneself spiritually and then wise principles in the Bible for digging out of a bad situation. I also have, uh, in the 31-day devotional series by P&R, I have one on money, which really in a devotional way covers a lot of the same principles that the larger book does. It’s just 2 pages per day for 31 days, so it’s very, you know, it’s a less than a fifth the length but it’s really dealing with the heart issues behind our finances. Uh, and so that could be— I would encourage you to consider many of those. Have a bunch on hand for people, not just mine but others in that series, for families that aren’t doing family devotions. They’re a really great entry-level opportunity. But then, you know, on financial— I’ve given this to people just, you know, to get the basic principles of wisdom from the scriptures, but also dealing with their heart issues, uh, as they face these challenges.

Tim Hopper: That’s very helpful. And, and I’ll also mention your book does have an, an audiobook edition. That’s, that’s very good. The chapters are not terribly long. So, I mean, you could easily listen to a chapter a day and, uh, they’re 10 minutes or something and, and get through this book in no time, a little bit of commitment. So, you know, for people who are great on the go, I was listening to some of it as in preparing for this. Thanks. A related question to that. And then you’ve alluded to I guess really I’m putting on your counseling hat. How do deacons help and encourage those who are facing financial troubles, um, outside of just handing them a book, recognizing that, you know, as I, as I said earlier, it’s often not just writing a check that solves the problem, but, you know, those who are facing financial struggles are likely having anxiety and, you know, maybe doubt and stress. You know, how do we counsel and encourage people in that situation?

Jim Newheiser: Yeah, I think that we need to do a lot of listening and different— you know, everybody’s gonna have a different situation and different causes. And so I think we have to listen both to what they’ve been doing, but you know, the way they spend money. You know, Jesus talked in Luke 6, out of the heart come our words and our deeds. And so I have a couple cases where a wife who’s at home, I think, is using spending money as a drug, uh, that buying more clothes or more jewelry or whatever, and she’s using it just like somebody could use food or drink or something just to kind of relieve boredom or stress or something. And so just putting on her budget isn’t gonna solve the problem if in her heart she believes she needs to every day I need to every day or every week have new stuff to be happy. Others, it could be comparison. I need to have what other people have. And we had a case in our church where a guy had a lot of friends who were better off than he, and they were living in a certain lifestyle, and he spent to keep up with that lifestyle. And then he lost his house because he, you know, he would have— if he would have been content with what he had, but there was comparison. And so I think trying to figure out what are the heart issues that led into this, and then, I mean, with— I understand too with the anxiety, I guess it’s certainly something if it’s a family, for the husband and wife, Philippians 4, you know, that be anxious for nothing and everything with prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God. It should drive them to pray And if— again, there— some people are victims financially. More people have been foolish. That’s where confessing to God and asking for his mercy— Psalm— the Psalm says he does not treat us as our sins deserve. And so, you know, seeking his help and trusting him and hoping in him and seeking his wisdom, you know, where they haven’t been following that wisdom, seeking accountability. Uh, like, that’s where— if they are willing to have that accountability with their deacons and elders, pastors. The financial crisis was also written for that type of situation. Uh, there’s some people who don’t read anything, and so it might be that the deacons who are helping might need to have familiarized yourself with some of this material from myself or others so that you could bring those principles to them even if they may not be the ones to read. I’ll also add that you’ve already mentioned the book. Is— there are other resources on the— I’m a director of a ministry called IBCD, the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship, and there’s a website ibcd.org, and there are audios, including audios I’ve done on financial topics. A lot of people will listen to an audio who won’t read a book. And so that’s another possibility.

Tim Hopper: Very helpful. Thank you. Another related question to these, something that’s been on my mind lately is, is thinking about, you know, our churches and old age. You know, in America and a lot of countries around the world, we have aging populations. So likely our churches are going to be having more and more people that are, uh, that are older. Our deacons study books together in our deacon meetings, and I had suggested a couple books including yours for our, our most recent study. And we actually decided to go with another book, a short book by an OPC minister called Honoring the Elderly, uh, about caring for aging parents, but really with the mind for our deacons to be prepared as our own congregation ages. And also we just have people in our church dealing with aging parents. What are some ways that you can think of that we can help people prepare for old age and retirement, as well as helping people help others do that, as we have people in our church helping their parents or, or others in the church.

Jim Newheiser: Yeah, I guess it goes back that I see a lot of like millennial-aged people who spend everything they have to maintain a lifestyle. And Proverbs 6, the ant gathers food in the summer, preparing for the future, And so I think that— I think sometimes just where we have opportunity to encourage people when they’re younger to have some wisdom to put aside for the future rather than to consume it all now. And I think even— I mean, as the church employs people, pastors, I think a lot of churches cut corners by, you know, how much do you need to survive, and that’s what they get paid. Yep. To making sure that part of their pay package is that money’s being put into 401(k) or 403(b) or something. Um, and so I think encouraging people as we have opportunity to plan for that. 1 Timothy 5, we’re told for widows that family has responsibility to care for them even before the church does. I think it’s interesting that Jesus, when he talks about the Fifth Commandment, rebukes the Pharisees from that commandment because they claimed they were tithing and they weren’t honoring their parents by helping their need in their old age. And again, there’ll be different situations. Uh, I think the greatest need of most older people is not money, but it’s love. And, you know, most people between Social Security and savings and everything else— you know, I’m in now the boomer generation that’s retiring. Uh, in most situations I’m aware in the church, the parents are— what they need is time with their kids and their grandkids and not to be ignored by the busyness of life. Some people have parents who have been foolish and irresponsible, and it puts them in a very awkward position because your parents are gambling and, you know, whatever, vacationing, and now they come to you and they want help. I actually have a mini book that addresses that, how to love difficult parents. But I mean, that’s another situation. Another wonderful distinction of Christians really both addressing the financial and the personal need. So many Christians, as their parents or grandparents become elderly and needy, invite them to live in the home or at least very nearby and make sure their various needs are cared for. You know, obviously, you know, inviting them into home is going to save them a lot of money. You know, major work of the deacons is caring for widows, going back to Acts 6, James 1. And so I think just to be aware of that And most of the needs of widows I see is they need somebody to come fix stuff, and that— where they’re saving a lot of money. Maybe you have this— I don’t have a lot of situations like Acts 6 where you have widows who are totally destitute, we’re having to feed them, right? But they’re lonely, or just their house is deteriorating and they need help managing, even managing their finances. Just to be very aware, I mean, that’s the center point of where the diaconal office began, in my understanding, in Acts 6. So I think our deacons in our church feel a strong obligation to be on top of whatever the needs of the widows are. I also think just many of older people don’t have children who honor the Lord, and therefore the church has to step in if the children aren’t fulfilling their responsibilities because they don’t have biblical values.

Tim Hopper: Thank you very much. A, a lot of different things to consider there, and I think an important thing for our deacons to keep in mind. One final question: do you have any future plans on working on, on money and more books or resources on this?

Jim Newheiser: I thought I was done, and then I wrote the one on financial crisis. The— I, I feel like, like I’ve been studying this my entire life, both from a common grace economic standpoint. I’ve read a lot of books, and then biblically, and what the money, debt, and finances book is, is kind of a, an overall summary of what I’ve been learning over decades. So at this point, I might— at some point when people like you recognize things I could have done better, I might revise it. But I don’t— on that particular area, I have other book projects on various counseling issues, but I think I’ve said most of what I have to say,

Tim Hopper: especially in that book.

Jim Newheiser: So no radio show? Yeah, maybe if Dave Ramsey retires, I’ll take his spot. Sounds good. But if I do, I won’t try to sell you all these different things.

Tim Hopper: Great. Thank you for coming on the Reformed Deacon podcast. We really appreciate your perspective.

Jim Newheiser: Thank you for inviting me. I’ve enjoyed getting to know you better, and it’s a privilege to have you talk about my book.

Narrator: Thanks for joining us. Go to our website, thereformeddeacon.org. There you will find all our episodes, program notes, and other helpful resources. And please make plans to join us again next month for another episode of the Reformed Deacon Podcast.